#1 I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von topmixed 15.03.2008 16:53

I really want to know what happen of this 146 video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5prz1Ae5QM&NR=1

Some people ask:
Why the gear so strong?
Why don't go around?
Because of cross wind!
Because of too high alt. and over speed on final! However, if it over speed on final, they should go around!

I think the most reason is " Wind Shear"

I read a book about BAe 146, the design of 146 expect they could use it in the aircraft carrier, that why the gear so strong!

They are suddenly stalling at the last moment of touch down, that why didn't go around. It is no meaning for go around because it is already on ground suddenly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-ed6H4TJD8&feature=related

As this video said "dive attact" of 146, it use 6 degree nose downd "steep approach", I think it is a bit look like the space shuttle landing.

We can see the "steep approach"action on the "Very bumpy landing" video, the 146 nose down a lot before hard touch down.

Suppose the flare will happen after pull up the nose from -6 degree but the flare action diappear! I think because the speed too low! It look like falling down from the sky! Being stall!

Why the speed too low?
#2 Re: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Shadowstarz 25.03.2008 07:29

I've seen some almost hard landings but to that 1st video I'd say OUCH!! And to the second one, awsome approach. I wonder if it's the same approach as flying into San Diego Intl (KSAN).
#3 Re: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Adrian19 26.03.2008 04:22

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Hi All,

both approaches are into London City. The 146 is the only 'Civil Passenger Jet', AFAIK, that is allowed to land at this airport because it has STOL capability and low noise.
The undercarriage is strong with low pressure tyres as it was designed for use on lower-standard runways.

The first video shows one of the problems at LCY, and that is windshear. London City is surrounded by tall buildings, with a somewhat narrow E-W Corridor for landing and take-off, these buildings cause a lot of turbulence and ground effects. This coupled with the steep 6° descent is why only Flight Captains can make this approach. The landing in the video is not that unusual at London City but probably on the limit of permitted landing conditions. I don't think he was too high, the angle of descent looks about right for LCY, nor too fast, otherwise he would have overshot the touchdown zone and in fact he stops quite quickly once under control, I think it was down to windshear, which is why the Captain didn't have time to flair, hence the hard TD and bouncy landing.

In the second video someone should have told the reporter that even if reverse thrust was permitted at LCY, the 146 would still have used just the airbrakes, lift spoilers and brakes to stop in such a short space, as it doesn't have reverse thrust !!
" The BAe 146 was specifically designed for short-field operation, with triple slotted flaps permitting short takeoffs, and an airbrake assembly in the tail plus heavy-duty brakes to reduce landing roll. The engines are very quiet, making them suitable for operations in dense urban areas."


So all in a days work for a 146,

Best.... Adrian W.

S.T.O.L. = Short Take Off and Landing
LCY = EGLC = London City Airport
#4 Re: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Adrian19 26.03.2008 18:40

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Update to the above.

after looking around the NET, I have found that other Jet types are permitted into LCY, the most recent being the A318 which B.A. plan to use for a service between London and New York.

The aircraft in the first video is actually an RJ100, it was checked over by engineers after this 'controlled crash' and was apparently back in service the following day.

Just as an afterthought how many of you have tried this 6° approach, it's not easy !! Out of 10 attempts I managed to land twice, the rest being GA's or worse versions of the vid.

I can understand why only Flight Captains trained on this approach are allowed to do it.

Give it a try

Best.... Adrian W.
#5 Re[2]: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Adrian19 26.03.2008 18:59

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Shadowstarz>I've seen some almost hard landings but to that 1st video I'd say OUCH!! And to the second one, awsome approach. I wonder if it's the same approach as flying into San Diego Intl (KSAN).

KSAN Rwy 27 - 3.5° glideslope Rwy 09 - 3.2° glideslope

should be a doddle in comparison.

Best.... Adrian W.
#6 Re: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Gordon 03.04.2008 23:30

Dear Adrian,

Thanks so much for your professional reply, that is what I want to know!

As you said that "how many of you have tried this 6° approach, it's not easy !! "
Yes! you are right, I try a lot of time this 6° steep approach landing and follow this video as a reference:

I try to follow the video "Druk Air Landing in Paro International Airport" with 6° steep approach landing.

youtube.com/watch?v=DuiNqOpuf3o&feature=related

I could see that it open the tail airbrake very early even before pass the "house of small hill".
As many 146 video, the ground spolier will be extened after touch down.

I aslo see the DVD which come fr."Intelligent Television and Video" product, "debonair" BAe 146-200. The pilot show us how to land the 146 in Cockpit view, but I am not sure it is doing 6° steep approach or not, it look like just a normal landing.

In the video, I feel that the 146 speed very slow on final before touch down, and it slow down very quick! In FS cockpit view, if want to fly 3° - 6° steep approach, the speed cannot below 130kts, so that after touch down the speed still very high, not easy to slow down.


I try many FS 146 model and flight dynamic, I found that the payware "Aerosoft Eurowings BAe 146-200" are the most good and closely. However, the tail airbrake still not enough to reduce the speed on before "the house of small hill". I need to edit the flight dynamic to increase it's drag force about 30%.

Before the "house of small hill", As my FS experience, the speed should be 150-160kts, then begin to use tail airbrake to adjust the speed to 120kts, throttle should not idle, otherwise the aircraft will stall on final flare. (but don't how many % should set!)

I saw some real reference data, actually, 146 landing speed could be 90-110kts but I never could match it, therefore I always feel that it is too high speed to slowdown on the runway!

At the moment of "dive attact" 6° steep approach, it is quite difficult to control the speed from 160 to 120 even 110kts,
As the video of cockpit view, I saw the real pilot idle the throttle on flare! then touchdown then extend the spolier.

Mr. Adrian said that "Out of 10 attempts I managed to land twice" only!

In FS, I try 10 times but every time is different, sometimes speed too fast, sometimes too slow!
I just wonder how could the real pilot could do it every times prefect landing?

Do you think the real cockpit control much easy handle than we play FS in computer?

DO you think that all the FS 146's flight dynamic still didn't setup real!

Would you or any body could point out which part should be adjust?
I am going to setup the 146 flight dynamic again for my new model!

A first problem I need to fix, how to make it nose down 6 / 3 / 0 degree from 160 / 130 / 100kts .
Usually, the normal aircraft 120kt are already nose up on final flare!

Should I move the CG foreward or backward, I still not should!

The other problem how to config. the tail airbrake and the ground spolier?
Suppose the drag force of tail airbrake will not make the nose up and down, may be just a bit nose down because the speed reduce, however the spolier extend on the wing, it should push the nose down a lot!

You should know that 146's airbrake and spolier are located at one control lever in the cockpit.

I still not sure could I config the air brake and spolier seperately?

Moreover, the "Very bumpy landing" video is a really very good reference, I will try to make my model match this condition!

Gordon
#7 Re: I really want to know what happen of this 146 video? von Adrian19 06.04.2008 07:16

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Hi Gordon,

I wouldn't say it's a professional reply, just my view, plus what I've read on the Net. Hard landings appear to be fairly regular at LCY. Here's another one from inside the passenger cabin, could be almost the same landing !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUUh2dXhKi4&feature=related

With reference to the airbrakes I agree that they don't appear to be as efficace as I would have expected, but on the real thing they're deployed before landing at the smaller airports, and at London City I've seen them out well before touchdown.

The Airbrake and Spoilers shouldn't be configured seperately. I use an axis to control them. At 75% I have full Airbrake deployment and once on the ground, move the lever to 100% to deploy the Lift Spoilers. Don't forget that on the 146's the Spoilers are manually deployed. I believe that it was only on the ARJ's that they became automatic.

Best.... Adrian W.
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